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Post by devster on Aug 25, 2006 12:59:37 GMT 2
I have been dipping in and out of here over the last few weeks and noticed the arguments again and the final climax of the clean up and the lock down. I don't understand why you locked Indy's thread Mike? It's like you wanted to make the last point and that's it, you fuel the discussion by making comment, but then prevent anyone from being able to reply? I actually think your final post was fine and what you said about compromise is spot on. A forum is somewhere to discuss and debate a particular subject and to also talk to other like minded individuals that wish to participate. Off topic situations are freely allowed and that right should never be taken away from someone. Indy opened a thread with a thought provoking question. He added a little twist of humour (or disrespect), depending on your view! He was not offensive nor did he personally attack anyone. I was going to add something to the thread, but found it locked up ?! Interestingly, it wasn't locked in time to stop Pieter and Andy telling Indy where to go (along with anyone else) if he didn't like it. Unless he is banned, I guess he is aware of his right to pack his bags and leave? Surely he doesn’t need to be advised of that right, unless of course it was an instruction? Just because you don't like certain aspects (parts) of life, a place, your work or a forum, it doesn't mean that you should leave. If you don't like it all of it then I agree, you should leave. If you don't, then I think you are bordering on being a bit a sadistic!!! It's a bit like saying I don't like the fact I'm earning crap money at work, so I'm going to jump of a bridge and kill myself!! Most people don't do that because the rest of their life is pretty good. The forum is a bit like that, most of its great, but there are things that go on that piss people off. You need to be able to vent those issue (with control) and discuss them, at the very least so that you can get the general consensus and find out if you were right or wrong and then to go on and change things for the better if needed. I think the whole issue has yet again been forgotten and the underlying hatred of Aris and to a lesser degree Indy has yet again reared its ugly head. Let us not forget that Aris did not start the original argument, he merely responded to a comment from RGF. Are we saying he is not allowed to reply, stand his ground? Or even worse he is allowed to reply but if the rulers of this forum don't like what he said, he will then be censored? RGF bought the situation into the public view, if he had an issue with the action Aris took, he should have pm'd him, but he did not. He did it in the full view of everyone and we the full knowledge it would provoke a response. I am aware that RGF has since issued an apology, so well done RGF. Even Michael has said contacting a seller after an auction is a no no, but it didn't stop people on here doing it, did it? So it's not ok to go against the views of the forum head, administrator or moderator when we are discussing issues on this board. But..... it is fine and accepted to go against his views when it involves self serving purposes and means you can get a game re-listed? Twisted I would say? I understand why some of you do not like the Aris' and Indy's of this world. They are confident, outspoken and not scared to rough it up a bit. I must admit I thought Aris was a bit of a tit when I first saw his posts. But after a while I realised that mostly (don't get carried away) a lot of what he said was true. His delivery could do with a clean up!! Bottom line is he puts the man hours in to source the rare stuff and gets negotiating before half of us have got out of bed!!! So he deserves the credit for that. The problem is we have seen the Taki's of this world do just what Aris has done, but because we liked Taki, no one said a word. We don't like Aris (well some don't) so he gets the grass up treatment!! Simple as that. We agreed to do everything we could to keep a game on eBay, so contacting the seller was fine. Now just because that has not worked and Aris has still been able to get good deals, we break that rule and shaft him anyway!!? Yes he's brash, outspoken and a pain in the arse, but what hurts you most is that the bloke we love to hate so much, actually nails most of you every time and has valid points. Don't kill freedom of speech and don't abuse it either. One and all, peace out and count up the words!!!
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Post by sAner on Aug 25, 2006 16:23:54 GMT 2
Interestingly, it wasn't locked in time to stop Pieter and Andy telling Indy where to go (along with anyone else) if he didn't like it. Unless he is banned, I guess he is aware of his right to pack his bags and leave? Surely he doesn’t need to be advised of that right, unless of course it was an instruction? What can I say, Paul? I am a nice man and like giving free advice. Btw: I don't agree with you that we -the forum staff- don't like people with strong opinions and different ideas, causing stir ups with their long posts. We always loved you, right? Pieter
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Post by andycole on Aug 25, 2006 17:03:24 GMT 2
Oh, for god's sake! When will you all realise what we've been trying to do is NOTHING to do with free speech or who likes who or doesn't like who, or what you're allowed to do on ebay and what you're not. It's about saving the forum.The recent BIG argument that revolved around private deals and pulling items off ebay cost us several members. I can think of at least 6 members that have not logged on since that argument. I don't want to see the forum die. And based on experience over the last couple of months, members (old or new) reading a forum that contains nothing but arguments are not going to bother to come back. I'm nearing that point, which is why I decided to take these actions. Now, if these 'lockdowns' as you call them, cost us a few more members, then so be it, but at least we'll have a fairly stable, and dare I say it, friendly, forum where people chat about the games and we all like each other. We don't necessarily have to agree all the time That's what it was like when I joined here, and that's the way I'd like it to return. Now, I know it's not my forum, but Mike has given me certain abilities, I assume because he trusts my judgement. While I still have those abilities, I'll exercise them to keep the arguments to a minimum. Mike, if you disagree with anything I'm saying, or any of my arguments, feel free to take away my admin rights. I'll fully understand. After all, it's YOUR forum. Get it now?p.s. I locked the thread immediately after my post. I guess Mike can add to a locked thread. Andy
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Post by mpanayiotakis on Aug 25, 2006 17:36:13 GMT 2
All moderators can add to a locked thread.
Michael
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Post by devster on Aug 25, 2006 19:52:06 GMT 2
Andy, Saving the forum is another point. I never said I didn't get that point did I? I was addressing the biased towards certain individuals and the way we deal with things in here. I want a nice forum, a nice atmosphere and all the trimmings. But you can't always have what you want. And if you are trying to tell me it's got nothing to do about who likes who, then I think you are mistaken. I might not have been around as long as some, but its been a few years and in that time I've seen how we deal with issues and there has been one rule for some and another for others. Maybe if you want to save the forum, you shouldn't lock down threads and allow the things that have gone on previoulsy. That upsets a lot of people you know? I have just addressed the issue of what slips through the net and is seen as acceptable and what is not, when sometimes they are both the same. As for saving the forum, I think that's a bit OTT. If you are talking about saving the forum for a select few that want to be the only ones posting, well that's a different kettle of fish? And who says all these people want that? Lockdowns and the like? I think you should lockdown and delete offensive and abusive posts for sure, but can we do the same for the people who provoke the action. I don't want to get RGF in trouble and I don't want him banned, but surely if he didn't do what he did, we would not be having this conversation? Surely his are the posts that we should be cracking down on and doing the lock down thing on? Instead, what happens is that the person that the post was about defends his position and everyone else gets on his case, forgetting where it all started? And you say it's got nothing to do with who likes who? If it had been someone else I think RGF might have been told where to go poke it!!! I think the best thing to do is create a 'Have your row here thread', then everyone knows where to go to have it out with each other and everyone on the outside looking in, knows what the situation is. The main forum can tick along nicely. We can all view the rows and add to it if we want. You can make it so the posts do not appear in the 20 recent posts section. So you will only see the row's if you go looking for them. A bit like porno mags, on the top shelf, out of sight of the children!!! (What can I say, Paul? I am a nice man and like giving free advice) Pieter, you are a lovely chap and I wasnt actually having a go at you, I just meant that it was convienient that a reply could not be given to your comments. Causing stir ups and long post's? I think you are mistaken. Andy, I'm still friendly even with the lockdowns etc, but having lockdowns etc does not guarantee friendly! There might be people on here not posting because of your actions Andy? Food for thought. Paul p.s. I would like to point out that I am currently in a happy state of mind, I wish no man any ill and I am a very friendly person. I still love you Pieter and Andy I have no beef with you. RGF, I also have no beef with you apart from look what you effing started!!! I just like to post an alternative and thought provoking piece from time to time, which you are all at liberty to say is a load of bo larks if you wish!! p.p.s. Andy, don't bother locking this thread down, because it didn't work with the last one did it. (Part III) That's the power of free speech, but I know it's not about that!
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Post by andycole on Aug 25, 2006 21:29:44 GMT 2
OK, I don't want yet another argument, so I'll say just a couple of things and keep it short. How rules were enforced or how favouritism was in effect before I had any admin powers is nothing to do with me so I won't comment. Lastly, yes, I was more or less aiming to save the forum with just a few people who only posted in a friendly way, and see where it goes from there. I don't see anything wrong with that. And if if pains you to not be able to have a public argument, then I can't help that, you need to be looking at yourself, not this forum. Or, if you REALLY need somewhere like that, go and create your own. After my last post in this thread, I did consider suggesting an 'arguments' forum area, but you beat me to the post Andy
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Post by monkeykong on Aug 25, 2006 21:35:40 GMT 2
Andy - Saving the forum LOL that is the stupidest thing I have heard all day. If you want to save the forum I suggest you resign.
Sner - Your attitude towards me is bang out of order. I just wonder if you wasn't hiding behind a desk, would the advice be the same.
I made the right move and started a new thread in the general section and it gets locked. I post in in G&W section and it gets deleted. How many more times are you going to ask me to leave, You're starting to sound like an oversized underpaid doorman.
Locking my thread was completely inappropriate. I am just glad that some decent people have had the guts to stand up to you guys. By decent people I mean non BINers as BINers are just scum so I've been brainwashed to believe. Wheres my gun and wheres that Aris guy...actually a pair of pliers and a blow torch would be more appropriate.
Paul - Thanks to you I spilt half a cup of tea on my desk. I only made it as your post was long haul :laugh: Good to hear some commonsense on this forum.
RGF - It took guts to apologise, I was wondering if any existed on this board.
I was just wondering if the select disciplinary committee had taken on RGF actions all of this would have been prevented?? Actually come to think of it nee chance. People do your job.
If any of you mods are up for it why not try and raise the profile of game&watch. I would love to hear what creative ideas you guys have. Or as I suspect this is the one part of my post that no moderator will comment on.
Indy (All donations for saving the forum can be sent to my paypal account)
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Post by sAner on Aug 25, 2006 22:36:05 GMT 2
Sner - Your attitude towards me is bang out of order. I just wonder if you wasn't hiding behind a desk, would the advice be the same. I guess you addressed me with "Sner", so I will reply. I don't understand why you think my attitude was out of order. I suggested you could leave the forum, if you dislike it that much. I left the decision entirely up to you. Different opinions are great, but the way you (and some others) have been moaning and moaning about the rules just isn't healthy. This is supposed to be a hobby and should be fun. And no, my advice would not have been any different if I wasn't 'hiding' behind my desk. Are we clear on that? I think your general responses wouldn't have been so aggressive (calling Andy stupid for God sake) if YOU hadn't been hiding behind your desk. sAner
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Post by devster on Aug 26, 2006 2:32:54 GMT 2
Oi you two, you are bang out of order, there is a time and a place for this sort of thing and it ain't here and it ain't going to happen on my watch!!! Maybe all future disagreements should go something like this.... I say old chap, that was a bit strong, I am not sure if I like your tone and the possible accusations you are throwing my way. Could I possibly ask you to stop that at once, theres a good chap! P.S. Saner, Indy didn't call Andy stupid, he just said it was the stupidest thing he's heard!!!
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Post by Aris on Aug 26, 2006 3:40:26 GMT 2
PD, good to see you're still making the rounds around here. You may not post that often anymore, but when you do, man, do you make a statement! Okay, firstly, let me set the record straight, I DID NOT figure out Devster's password and post a bunch of messages in this forum, under his ID. Though, I may as well have, because I can't find a single thing in his posts that I disagree with, and that's saying a lot! (okay, maybe I disagree with that part about me being a tit!) Paul, I'm beginning to think that you've got to be my long-lost twin brother! The not-so-good-looking one, that is! ;D Wow, so much has gone on in here since I last posted, that I don't know where to start.... I'll start with the locked thread that Indy initiated - 'So what's a forum then?' I haven't laughed at anything posted in this forum as much as I laughed at this thread! Indy, you are one funny guy! Especially your 'feels more like 3 Brendan' post! ;D Mike, like I've said many times in the past, you can't possibly have a forum where people don't quarrel. It's inevitable! There are just too many different personalities from too many different areas around the world, for this forum to be void of discord. Do you really think everyone will always agree with everything posted here all the time? Or even half the time? If so, your expectations are unrealistic. Brendan, you're bang-on! 1b, 1c and 2 (from Indy's dictionary.com definition) are exactly what this is supposed to be, if it's a forum. Pieter, I think the point Indy is making, is that the rules don't seem to apply to everyone (as Paul accurately pointed out in his posts) and those in authority are too biased to run the forum properly. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Indy, but, it's not the forum he dislikes it's the way it's being run that he has a problem with. Taking shots at him and then locking the thread so he can't reply is a perfect example of this. I think the more appropriate action would be, if you, Andy, Innis or Mike don't like a particular person, or what they say, or their BIN tactics, why don't you just 'Nelson' them? Andy, if your comment isn't, as Mike said, 'Hitlerish' I don't know what is. You keep thinking people are leaving because of the debating that goes on here. However I offer you a different reason for their departure: biased Admin staff abusing their power, being hypocritical and creating an environment where members are ganged up on for non-conforming posts. Mr. Cole, you made reference to trying to save the forum because the latest discussion on private deals resulted in certain members not having signed in since then. Just to clarify, I don't make private deals, I try to keep everything on ebay as I have nothing to hide. The only time I buy something outside of ebay, is at the seller's insistence, not mine. You, on the other hand, do make 'outside' offers for ebay-listed items, so, by identifying a discussion on something that you take a stand against on HERE, but, discretely participate in when you think others will never find out about it, as a reason why this forum is falling apart, you are actually shooting yourself in the foot. When you have a person in a position of authority who says one thing to people's faces, then does the exact opposite behind their backs, that person ends up being a bigger problem than the actual debating. You guys want to learn how to make this a better place? Take a look at Brendan's motto, keeping it real, can go a long way. Aris out
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Post by andycole on Aug 26, 2006 9:22:16 GMT 2
Indy, you never answered my question in a previous thread - why did you come back here if you dislike it so much? I tell you why - because it's the only G&W forum that's worth visiting. Even in it's current state. Yet all you can do is complain about it. It may not be run the way you like it but that's because you have a problem understanding the purpose of this particular forum, not because we do.
Aris, this forum DID exist with about abusive comments and personal remarks - before you arrived. I don't need to tell you about it, just go and read the old threads and that will prove it to you. You can't talk your way out of that one.
People running the forum are free to run it the way they like, call it hitlerish, call it whatever you like, but the fact remains that those people can do what they like. It's Mike's forum. Not yours, not mine, not Indy's, not Pieters.
If you want a forum where you can freely argue amongst yourselves, go and create one, it's free, you know.
Andy
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Post by sAner on Aug 26, 2006 11:13:05 GMT 2
Aris, this forum DID exist with about abusive comments and personal remarks - before you arrived. I don't need to tell you about it, just go and read the old threads and that will prove it to you. You can't talk your way out of that one. Exactly! Andy beat me to it, but I was going to write this too. I registered to this forum on November 6th 2003, exactly one day after Mike created it. Until Aris, Indy and one or two others joined up, we were a perfectly happy and big family. Sure, we had debates (I mean; Paul has been a member since very early 2004), but except for Nelson we never experienced any real problems. I don't say it is possbile; history proved that it was possible for many years, with many more active members than we have today. Before Mike initiated this forum, because Spinal couldn't pay his i-net bills anymore and his forum faded away, Mike and I (and some others) had been a member of Spinal's forum. I am attending the g&w fora since 2002 and (except for Nelson) I have experienced years of great debates. There were quarrels, there were debates, there were long posts and there were arguements, but it was never like this. In the period 2002-2005 one could hardly keep up with all the posts written per day and still there was no negativism like we experience today. Let me tell you what I think the problem is. It's not Mike, it's not the forum staff, it's not the rules of the forum and it's not the way the forum is run because all of that wasn't any different in the past. The problem is people like you Aris and Indy (and Nelson in the past). Trying to debate everything to pieces, just for the sake of having an arguement. Arguements are fine, but you shouldn't try to raise arguements, just because you want to have an arguement. If the forum was called "Pieter's forum" I would have kicked you out long time ago. The fact Mike only banned Nelson (and if you weren't around at the time Nelson was around, you can't say anything about it) proves Mike is the most reasonable guy around. And the fact I nor Andy nor Pulse8 don't kick you out even though we have the power to do that, proves we are anything but Hitlerish. Do you think locking threads is Hitlerish?? Take a look on the other 1.7 million boards hosted by proboards; the staff-members of this forum are Mother Teresas compared to the staff of the other boards. Andy gave you some great advice in the end of his last post. Why don't you create your own g&w forum with your own rules? Here's the link you need: Click here! Regards, sAner
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Post by devster on Aug 26, 2006 12:18:09 GMT 2
Saner is right in a lot of respects there. I think that there was plenty of debate and there were some arguments for sure. Generally they got sorted out and the threat of locking the thread usually worked. Maybe we have all got older, added to the fact we have been doing this for a while makes us a bit on edge. I would suggest that we all read a book called 'Who moved my cheese' - It's all about change and how different people react to change. Saner I agree with what you are saying about Indy and Aris being the centre of most arguments in here, but we have a few issues.... 1) They were not a part of the original members of this forum, so they are unable to relate to those days and have no bond there. 2) I don't think that they are on the same scale as Nelson? Maybe Aris in length of post!!! But apart from that? 3) Just because no one made a stand against things that were posted back then does not mean it didn't go on. 4) Aris and Indy are the not the sort of guys to sit back and keep quiet if they don't like something that is said. Is number 4 a crime? It's like saying in the forum rules... Rule 6 - From time to time, someone will piss you off, accuse you of something you didn't do, call you names, tell you that they didn't like you, moan about the deal you did and generally kick you in the nuts. - IT IS AGAINST THE RULES TO DEFEND, RESPOND OR EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THE ABOVE ACTS IF THEY HAPPEN AND IN PARTICULAR IF THEY HAPPEN TO YOU!! Now we all know that’s not right don't we!? It's like all problems; you have to stop the source and unless you ban/delete any hint of a contentious post, then people will end up touching the fuse paper. Add to the mix a couple of individuals who will stand their ground and you have the Molotov Cocktail!!! If someone said some of the things that have been said to Aris / Indy in the past to me, do you think I would just sit there and do nothing? No, I would respond and respond in full. I would (and I'm not trying to be big headed) probably have a few people defending me in that situation even if it was a borderline case. (Maybe not now!!) The issue is that I don't tend to get myself into those types of situations because I'm such a lovely boy!!! and people do not tend to have pops at me. However, if I started doing the types of things Aris does, that everyone hates so much, how would people be reacting and what would my response be (or my response allowed to be)? Thats the reason why he gets the flak, because he is doing stuff we don't like and then defending it. We didn't have a guy doing that publicly back in the past on this forum Pieter (well that did it openly). We had Taki, but he never came here, so we couldn't beat him up for it!!! (Or would we have?) I think both Aris and Indy do like the forum for a mixture of reasons and I think you are right Andy, it's the best one out there (at the moment), but lets not get complacent as it wouldn't take much to move over to somewhere else. One of the reasons people might not move somewhere else, isn't because they love it so much, it's because we are all lazy and we can't be bothered. It's too easy to log in here than make the effort somewhere else to keep the posts up and build the community! (Not saying that I only come here for that reason ) Right, that's me done. Almost! How about we all agree to disagree and leave my post as the last post on this subject, I only say that because it is not having ago at anyone or flaming anyone (I think). Not because I want to have the last word. Can we all try to get along now and all sign under this post that will do our best to get along? Can we also pledge not to try and provoke an argument as well, because we all know what the outcome will be. Let's just try to see it from all sides, not just our own? The Devster ' Come Play My Game I'll Test Ya!'
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Post by pulse8 on Aug 26, 2006 13:02:42 GMT 2
How about we all agree to disagree and leave my post as the last post on this subject, I only say that because it is not having ago at anyone or flaming anyone (I think). Not because I want to have the last word. Can we all try to get along now and all sign under this post that will do our best to get along? Can we also pledge not to try and provoke an argument as well, because we all know what the outcome will be. Let's just try to see it from all sides, not just our own? I will, as I always have done Vote 1 Paul Deveney for Moderator!! (and possibly, for PM ) pulse8
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Post by devster on Aug 26, 2006 13:12:45 GMT 2
I do have a radical side to me which could cause issues if I was to became PM!! I'd also end up involved in too many scandals!! But hey, thanks for the support brother
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